1.11 Alstory Simon

In episode 11 of Bow to Fate we discuss the wrongful conviction of Alstory Simon. We are going to review what happens when the wrongful conviction movement gets overzealous and potentially lets a guilty man out of jail.

**SHOW SCRIPT**

Hello and thanks for listening to Bow to Fate- a podcast focusing on true crime with an emphasis on the flaws in our justice system. Today we are going to discuss the wrongful conviction of Alstory Simon, but in order to do this we first have to talk about Anthony Porter. In 1983 Porter was convicted for the murders of Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green in Washington Park on August 15th, 1982, he received the death penalty for his actions. Porters came within 50 hours of execution, he was granted a stay after questions arose about his mental capacity. Porter’s IQ score came back at a mere 51. Porter’s stay of execution coincided with the start of a new semester at Northwestern University, and an opportunity for David Protess and his journalism students to review Porter’s case

This case has centered around David Protess who was a journalism professor with Northwestern University. Protess started the now named Medill Innocence Project at the university. He assigned his students to investigate Porter’s case and prove his innocence. Protess was famous for the Ford Heights Four. Verne Jimerson, Dennis Williams, Kenneth Adams, and Willie Rainge were imprisoned for the double murders of Lawerance Lionberg and Carol Schmal in Ford Heights, Illinois. They were later exonerated with the help of David Protess and his students. They found that the witnesses in the case had lied and DNA evidence later pointed to the true murders. All of these cases will focus in Cook County, Illinois a hotbed for wrongful convictions and at the time in a battle to overturn the death penalty. Here is Governor George Ryan talking about Anthony Porter from the documentary Murder in the Park.

Gov Ryan- Anthony Porter- Murder in the Park

On August 15th, 1982, police responded to a call shortly after 1am, a man had been shot in Washington Park. Officer Anthony Liance was the first to arrive. As he was approaching the pool area of the park, Marilyn Green was running from the bleachers, holding her neck with her right hand she pointed Officer Liance to the south end of the bleachers where Jerry Hilliard had been shot. As Marilyn continued running away, Officer Liance ran towards the scene of the crime. He caught a man, whom he later identified as Anthony Porter, running from the scene. He frisked Porter and found no weapon so he let him go. Marilyn Green by that time had staggered her way to two other officers, they saw that she had been shot in the neck, the officers placed her in their patrol car and rushed her to the hospital where she later passed away.

As more officers arrived they descended into the pool area of Washington Park. There they met Henry Williams, he told officers that a man had been shot up in the bleachers. As officers climbed the bleachers they found Jerry Hilliard lying on his back bleeding from his head. Officers got him to the hospital, where he underwent surgery and ultimately passed away.

The medical examiner reviewed the bodies of Marilyn Green and Jerry Holland. Green was shot twice in the neck at close range and once through the left hand. Hilliard was also shot through his left hand and twice in the head.

Henry Williams and William Taylor were taken to the police station as witnesses that night. Both men had decided to sneak into the pool in Washington Park that night for a swim. Henry Williams advised that he had exited the pool and was putting on his pants when he was approached by Anthony Porter, he said Porter pulled a gun on him and took two dollars from his pocket before moving toward the bleachers at the pool where Jerry Hilliard and Marilyn Green sat. Williams told police that he saw Porter and another man pull a gun on Hilliard and Green possibly in an attempt to rob them as well.

William Taylor continued to swim while his friend was robbed by Anthony porter. He originally told police that he did not see the shooting and could not identify the man responsible. Henry Williams told police that his friend knew who committed the shooting and feared retribution. William Taylor lived with his 95 year old grandmother and Anthony Porter and his brothers had a reputation in the community as being tough and unforgiving. After several hours of questioning. William Taylor eventually told police that he did witness the shooting and identified Anthony Porter as the culprit.

Detectives felt that they had a very strong case against porter, Henry Williams was robbed at gunpoint by Porter shortly before the murder, William Taylor witnessed the shooting and had identified Porter in a line up, and Officer Liance had identified Porter as the man he stopped running from the Washington Park pool area that night, but when Prosecutor David Kerstein got involved he asked detectives for more. He argued that Williams and Taylor had both been drinking that night, which could hurt their credibility at trial.

Prosecutor Kerstein asked Detectives Salvatore and Gray to take their witnesses back to walk the crime scene and see if they could dig up some additional information before he would agree to sign an arrest warrant for Anthony Porter.

While at the scene they learned that there were several people in the vicinity of the pool that night and as they canvassed they found additional witnesses to the crime.

Kenneth Edwards knew Anthony Porter from the neighborhood, he was in the pool area at the time of the shooting, heard gunshots and looked up and saw Porter with a gun in his left hand. Edwards was standing beside his friend Eugene Beckwith. Beckwith told detectives that he saw the shooting, but was unable to identify Porter. He did tell them that he saw Porter in the park earlier in the evening.

Edwards and Beckwith told detectives that they were with two other men, Mark Senior and Michael Woodfork. Both Senior and Woodfork told detectives that they witnessed some part of the shooting and both placed Porter in the pool area the night of the murder.

Prosecutor Kerstein now had a total of six witnesses, two of whom were direct eyewitnesses to the shooting. The details varied slightly, but all provided statements. Detectives were still unable to locate the gun, but despite this Prosecutor Kerstein finally signed the arrest warrant for Anthony Porter.

In September of 1983, Prosecutor Kerstein took Anthony Porter to trial for the double murders of Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green and also the armed robbery of Henry Willams that night. The prosecution presented their case using only the testimonies of Henry Williams and Taylor Williams. They did not find a need to call the other four witnesses for various reasons. Prosecutor Kerstein felt that they had enough to convict Porter using only Willams and Taylor.

Anthony Porter’s family opted to pay for a private attorney, they felt that he would have a better chance at acquittal using a private attorney rather than a public defender. They obtained Akim Gursel and agreed to a fee of $10,000 in total. The Porter family only paid their attorney $3000. Gursel later admitted that he was forced to stop investigating the case due to a lack of funding.

The defense called a total of three witnesses in the trial. One was a photographer, Eric Wener. He had no knowledge of the crime, instead the defense had hired him to photograph the crime scene over a year after the shootings.

Kenneth Doyle was a friend of Porter, he testified that we was drinking with Porter at Porter’s mother’s home until about 2 AM on the night of the murder, he stated that they then walked to a nearby playground and continued to drink until 9 AM the next morning. Doyle fell apart on cross examination. He had spoken to detectives on August 17th 1982 and told them that he had been drinking with Porter until 10:30pm on the night of the murder and spend the rest of the evening with his mother. He claimed that he lied to the police because he feared that he would be arrested. All of the witnesses claim to have seen Porter with another man, and none were able to identify him.

Their final witness was Georgia Moody, the common law wife of one of Porter’s brothers. She testified that she saw Doyle and Porter at his mother’s house. She claimed that Doyle and Porter were playing cards with her children, she claimed they had not gone out to the porch and they were not drinking. Moody told the jury that Porter and Doyle left with a friend around 2:30 AM that morning.

On September 7th, 1983 after deliberating for nine hours, a jury convicted Porter of armed robbery, unlawful restraint, unlawful use of a weapon, and two counts of murder. This was a death penalty case, meaning that the trial was going to have a penalty phase. During this phase evidence is presented regarding the culpability of the Porter and the danger he would present in the future. A mitigating circumstance is something that would lower the defendant’s culpability in the crime. This would include the defendant’s disadvantaged upbringing, his -intellectual deficits, or positive accomplishments during his life. The jury would weigh these factors and determine if Porter should receive a sentence of death or life in prison.

One day after the guilty verdict was rendered the penalty phase of the trial began. For this phase Porter waived his right to a jury trial and requested a bench trial instead. This would mean that only the judge would decide if Porter should be put to death. Porter’s attorney, Akim Gursel, later admitted that he had opted for a bench trial because his supervisor instructed him to. Porter’s fee had not been paid and a bench sentencing would be faster and less work than jury sentencing.

Before dismissing the jury, Gursel told the judge that he had discovered that one of the jurors had attended the same church as the victim’s mother. Lillie Trigleth, one of the jurors, did in fact attend the same church as Marilyn Green’s mother. The defense requested a mistrial as Porter was entitled to an impartial jury of his peers. The judge questioned Lillie Trigleth under oath. She told the court that after the case began she realized that she attended the same church as the victim’s mother but stated that it did not impact her ability to be impartial. Gursel argued that there were two alternate jurors and had Lillie Trigleth brought forward her connection to the victim’s mother they could have replaced her on the jury. The judge eventually denied the defense’s request for a mistrial, but advised the defense to bring forth any arguments in writing for a request for a new trial.

With the denial of the mistrial the sentencing phase of the trial commenced. The prosecution presented evidence of Anthony Porter’s criminal history. Porter was on probation at the time of the murders. On April 27th 1979 he was placed on probation for jumping bail, he violated that probation two months later when he robbed and assaulted Douglas McGhee who was sitting next to the pool in Washing Park, the scene of the murders. For this crime he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to three years, a year later he was released and placed on parole again. This time he got into an argument with Earl Lewis. Porter allegedly kicked Lewis’s dog and when Earl confronted Porter. Porter pulled a gun and placed it to Earl Lewis’ head. Porter fired the gun, but Lewis pulled back just in time and the bullet only grazed his forehead. Anthony Porter later pleaded guilty to aggravated battery of Lewis. These incidents obviously showed that Porter had a violent history and obviously jail time and probation were not effective deterrents for Porter.

The defense brought forth witnesses that thought that Porter could become a law abiding citizen if his life was spared. They stated that he had attended church and had helped to clean the church for a time. They showed that he took care of his mother, and that she had raised him and his eight other siblings all alone in the housing projects in Chicago. The defense did not present any evidence of his mental capacity or his IQ score. There simply was not any funding to provide such tests and remember the Porter family had not even paid the original $10,000 fee to the defense counsel.

On September 9th 1983 the judge found no mitigating circumstances to preclude capital punishment and sentenced Anthony Porter to death.

Porter’s appeals started a few years after the conviction. Now represented by the public defender’s office and pro-bono attorneys. They brought forward the juror’s relationship with the victim’s mother and ineffective assistance of counsel of his trial attorney. Akin Gursel had failed to call witnesses that would have pointed to other suspects.

The new defense team found Joyce Haywood who claimed that she saw the victims, Jerry Hilliard and Marilyn Green, go into Washington Park with Alstory Simon and his then girlfriend Inez Jackson. Marilyn Green’s mother, Offra Green and sister Christina Green also stated that she saw Jerry and Marilyn walk into the Park with Alstory and his girlfriend.

Ricky Young told the defense that Jerry Hilliard had been selling drugs for Alstory Simon, and that they were fighting over some of the drug money days before the murder. Offra Green, Marilyn’s mother had pointed to Alstory Simon right away. Alstory Simon and Inez Jackson had moved from Chicago to Milwaukee shortly after the murder and Marilyn’s mother found this very suspicious.

Despite the newly found witnesses and testimonies each of Porter’s appeals were denied and his execution date was set for September 23rd, 1998.

In a last ditch effort to save Anthony Porter’s life, his attorneys had Porter’s IQ tested. His result was a 51, which indicated an intellectual disability. His legal team argued that he was incapable of understanding his punishment and could not be executed. 50 hours from execution, the Illinois Supreme Court granted a stay of execution, to provide additional time to explore Porter’s mental capacity.

The stay of execution allowed David Protess and his class of journalism students at Northwestern University time to investigate the case. Protess and his students were responsible for three previous exonerations, before the case of Anthony Porter. They reviewed the documents available to the public, much like armchair detectives like myself do, they reviewed trial testimony, court documents, and police reports. Protess suggested that the class review the crime scene. They went to the pool at Washington Park and re-enacted the crime. According to their interpretation, William Taylor could not have seen Anthony Porter running from the park that night. What they did not know was that in the 16 year since the crime, the pool had been remodeled and pillars and fences had been added between the pool area and the bleachers. They had also misconstrued the police reports and gotten the actual location of the crime incorrect, but hindsight is 20/20.

Protess requested the assistance of a private investigator, Paul Ciolino, a man he had used in other cases. There is so much contradicting information out there regarding Ciolino, both sides agree though, he will do whatever it takes to get his man. Whether that is right or wrong depends on which side of the line you fall.

Ciolino went with students to interview William Taylor after their crime scene re-enactment. They confronted him about their discovery that he could not have seen Porter on the night of the murder. According to Taylor, he was over this case. He did not want to be involved in the case anymore. He had his life torn apart during the trial of Anthony Porter. Remember that when first asked by detectives he refused to identify Anthony Porter, it was not until his friend Henry Williams told police that William had seen Porter that he finally relented and told police that he had seen Porter and that he feared for his elderly grandmother.

Ciolino and the students pressed Taylor on his account of the night of the murder, after several hours he finally relented and signed a affidavit saying that he had not seen Anthony Porter point a gun or shoot anyone the night at the pool at Washington Park. He also swore not that Chicago police had threatened, harassed, and intimidated him into naming Porter as the assailant. When later interviewed in the documentary Murder in the Park Taylor had this to say

2. WILLIAM TAYLOR CLIP- Murder in the Park

Students then decided it was time to visit Porter on death row. He asked them to find Inez Jackson. According to Porter he believed that Jackson, Alstory Simon’s wife, would name Alstory Simon as the real murderer of Jerry Hilliard and Marilyn Green.

Unbeknownst to the students, at Danville Correctional Center, Anthony Porter was locked up with Alstory Simon’s nephew Walter Jackson. According to Walter, Porter had told him of his dealings with David Protess and promised him help with his legal troubles. He promised him that after Porter was released Protess’ students would help get him released as well and there would be money from book deals and movie deals from their cases.

Walter got the message loud and clear. On January 8th, 1999 when students visited him at Danville he told them that he had been living with Simon and his aunt as a runaway the night of the crime. He claimed that he heard Alstory Simon talking about meeting the victims at the park. He claimed that Alstory Simon was acting in such a way that he knew that Simon intended to hurt Jerry Hilliard and Marilyn Green in the park that night. He also swore that after the murders Simon pulled him aside and let him know that he had taken care of Hilliard and Green, Simon apparently told him that he had killed Hilliard and Green at the pool that night with a .38 caliber revolver. He said that Simon now feared retribution from Jerry Hillard’s street gang. He stated that the next day the three of them left Chicago until the heat died down.

Protess’ journalism students got to work on trying to track down Inez Jackson. They ran into several roadblocks until they found her real name was Margaret Simon. They were able to arrange a meeting with her, later it would be disclosed that the students, Protess, and Ciolino took Inez out to buy her groceries and alcohol and then brought her back to her home to videotape her accounting of the night. Inez told them that Alstory Simon had taken her to the park the night of the murders and they had met up with Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green. She said that Alstory had shot both Hillard and Green and told her that it was because of a dispute over drug money. She stated that they fled Chicago the next day in fear of retaliation for the murders.

Armed with the recantation of William Taylor and the new testimony from Inez Jackson, Protess and his students drove to Milwaukee to confront Alstory Simon with their information. Simon told the professor and his charges in no uncertain terms that he did not have anything to do with the murders and had no idea why anyone would say differently.

Protess and his students returned to Chicago undeterred by Simon’s refusal to confess. Protess by this time was somewhat of a media darling. His program had already overturned the convictions of four other convicts and Chicago was in the midst of a major change. The death penalty was once again under scruitny and Governor George Ryan was leaving office and in the midst of reviewing cases of all convicted persons on death row for clemency, there were whispers that he was considering abolishing the death penalty all together. Here is Governor Ryan from the documentary Deadline.

3. Gov Ryan- Death penalty and Porter- Deadline

Rather than turn the information over to the police to let them continue the investigation into what they had so far, Protess decided to start releasing their findings to the local news.

4. NEWS CLIP- TAYLOR CHANGING STORY

Protess wrote several articles on their findings. Protess and the Chicago media continued to push the false narrative that there was only one eye witness to Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green’s murder. At this point Protess asked Paul Ciolino to follow up with Alstory Simon.

Ciolino and a colleague of his made the trip to Milwaukee again. Posing as police detectives from Chicago, they bull-rushed (his actual words, not mine) their way into Simon’s home. Once inside they questioned Simon over and over again. In their possession they had a video tape of what would turn out to be an actor hired by Protess, who said that he witnessed the murder and pointed at Simon as the culprit. In a sick turn of fate, after the tape ended, a news program started and on it was the videotaped accusations made by Inez Jackson. Ciolino convinced him that he would get a light prison sentence if he confessed and he would get a portion of the book and movie deals that were sure to come along with the case. Ciolino told him that they knew the killings were done in self defense.

With the walls closing in on his Alstory Simon told the investigators that he would confess. He requested an attorney, Ciolino at this time told Simon that they were not detectives and disclosed their role in the investigation with Protess and his students. Ciolino assured Simon that he could arrange for representation for him, he called on his college and office mate, Jack Rimland.

After consulting with Rimland, Simon agreed to confess to Ciolino and have him record it. Simon’s confession told a much different story than the autopsies told. Listen to a portion of Simon’s confession from the documentary Murder in the Park

5. Alstory Simon Confession- Murder in the Park

Simon was telling a story of self defense. Stating that Jerry Hilliard attacked him and he accidentally shot them both. The autopsy showed that each of them had been shot three times and no gun had been found on Marilyn Green or Jerry Hillard. Rimland and Ciolino promised Alstory Simon that he would receive a light prison sentence.

After obtaining Alstory Simon’s taped confession, rather than turn that over to Chicago detectives, Protess decides to release that tape to CBS. Within two days of that confession airing on television Richard Devine, the state’s attorney, decided to release Anthony Porter from prison. The Chicago police had not even received a copy of the original confession video when the decision was made to release Anthony Porter.

Jack Rimland came to Alstory Simon’s home. Simon told Rimland that he did not have anything to do with the murder’s and that he was lying on the confession tape. Remember, Jack Rimland is Paul Ciolino’s personal attorney and shares an office with him. Rimland tells Simon that even without the confession the evidence is so strong against him that if he recants he will surely get the electric chair.

A few days later Alstory Simon tells his pastor, Reverend Robert Braun, that he had nothing to do with the murders and that he was considering telling the truth to the judge when asked. Simon told Rev. Braun that his attorney, Jack Rimland told him that there was no other choice than to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty. Rev. Braun then talked with Jack Rimland himself, he expressed his concerns about Simon pleading guilty and Rimland told him that Simon was only going to receive two years in prison in exchange for pleading guilty.

Jack Rimland then visits Alstory Simon in prison, Simon told Rimland that he is considering going to trial. Rimland then begins to panic, and tells Simon that he is a strong suspect in another murder in Milwaukee. So if he does not plead guilty to murder he will either face the death penalty in Illinois or Wisconsin. Rimland then advised Alstory Simon that there is a plea deal on the table that if he pleads guilty to the murders of Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green and accepts a 40 year sentence, he will have immunity from prosecution in Wisconsin. The larger issue is that in truth Milwaukee had no intention of charging Alstory Simon with murder, in fact they had completely ruled him out, the media reports were false.

Faced with what he thought was going to be another murder conviction, Alstory Simon, pleads guilty and accepts a 40 year sentence. On the advice of counsel he apologized to Marilyn Green’s mother.

During sentencing, Assistant State’s Attorney, Thomas Gainer, said that he planned to call Kenneth Edwards, Michael Woodfork, and Mark Senior. He did not disclose that all three of those witnesses planned to point the finger at Anthony Porter not Alstory Simon.

But this goes further, when Thomas Gainer was first tasked with pulling together a grand jury, his first one was not tasked with finding an indictment. He called all living witnesses including David Protess and the students from Northwestern. Those jurors asked the students if they had possibly been duped. They heard all the witnesses and learned that the students from Northwestern were only interested in the evidence that pointed towards Anthony Porter’s innocence. They went into the assignment believing that their goal was to prove his innocence not find the truth. We talk a lot about tunnel vision in our cases, in this case the assignment for the Northwestern journalism students was not to find the truth, it was to prove Anthony Porter’s innocence.

Thomas Gainer knew he had a real problem, the state’s attorney had released Anthony Porter two days after Alstory Simon’s confession tape aired on CBS. Cook County and the entire state of Illinois was under a microscope due to the alarming number of wrongful convictions in the state. He called a second grand jury this time seeking an indictment of Alstory Simon. This time he would not call any witnesses, he would simply present the case as the Northwestern students had laid it out.

On September 7th, 1999 Alstory Simon plead guilty to the double murder of Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green his tearful apology to Offra Green, Marilyn Green’s mother, would earn him 37 years in prison.

Just short of six months later on January 21st, 2001 Alstory Simon received the discovery information for both grand jury inquiries. He also learned that his attorney, Jack Rimland, had presented an award to David Protess and the students of Northwestern University for their work in freeing Anthony Porter. He presented this award while negotiating Alstory Simon’s plea deal. It was at this point Alstory Simon realized that he had been played. His new attorney’s Terry Ekl and James Soto began to work on Simon’s appeal.

While Alstory Simon and his attorney’s are working on his appeal and attempting to get him an evidentiary hearing. On January 11th, 2003 Governor George Ryan of Illinois makes a landmark announcement.

6. Gov Ryan Death Penalty Gone- Deadline

Later in his speech Governor Ryan talks about the Anthony Porter case, he discusses how it was instrumental in commuting the sentences of all those on death row. Before leaving office Governor Ryan also pardon’s Anthony Porter and issues him a certificate of innocence. While the state of Illinois released Porter from prison, he was charged with both the armed robbery of Henry Williams and the double murders of Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green. The state intended to uphold the conviction for armed robbery. This paid a roll in the compensation that Anthony Porter would receive for is conviction. The state would only need to compensate him for an erroneous 1.5 years in prison as the conviction for robbery would be subtracted from his time served. Porter was set to only receive $61,023 for his time in prison, the Chicago media received this information and there was public outcry. A week later the state refused to uphold the robbery conviction, which meant that Porter would receive just over $149,000.

The original decision by the state told Alstory Simon’s attornies that they doubted Porter’s innocence as well. Porter had always said that he was not in Washington Park that night, if the state thought that they could prove otherwise, there may be hope still for Alstory Simon.

This belief was further upheld when on October 31st, 2005 Anthony Porter sued the state of Illinois and the Chicago police officers for his wrongful conviction. Porter asked the jury to award him $24 million dollars. He claimed that the Chicago detectives had railroaded him. Going further stating that they had tortured him and suffocated him in an attempt to ascertain a confession. In defense of their officers, the state claimed that they had probable cause to arrest Anthony Porter and that there was ample evidence to prove that he was the culprit of the crimes committed on August 15th, 1982. What happened over the next few days was a murder trial in front of a civil jury. In the end the jury did not award Anthony Porter anything for his time in prison. They found that Chicago Police did in fact have ample evidence to both arrest and imprison Anthony Porter for his actions.

Cook County, Illinois faced with several cases of wrongful conviction started the Conviction Integrity Unit in order to review the convictions of those who claimed to be wrongfully convicted. The embarrassing situation of having journalism students overturn their cases needed to be stopped.

Alstory Simon’s legal team had hit a wall. They brought the case to the CIU and Anita Alvarez. On October 22, 2013 Alvarez announced to the media that they were reopening the case of the double murder of Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green.

On October 13, 2014 Anita Alvarez announced a press conference related to the case.

7. Alvarez releases Simon

Alstory Simon was released from prison, the case against him was found to be corrupt. Alvarez cited the alarming, coercive tactics used in obtaining the confession. They claimed that the journalism students, David Protess, and Paul Ciolino had tainted the investigation. Alvarez admitted that they could not prove with any certainty that Alstory Simon had anything to do with the murders and Anthony Porter had been pardoned by the governor. There would be no justice for Jerry Hillard or Marilyn Green.

In 2011 the moratorium on the death penalty was made permanent in the state of Illinois. This case played a huge role on repealing the death penalty in Chicago unfortunately it is filled with good intentions spoiled. It is a stunning example of what can happen if we allow narrow vision and bias to enter an investigation. David Protess left Northwestern University after an investigation into the Medill Innocence Project found that his tactics were unethical and coercive. He is now the President of the Chicago Innocence Project and continues to work on cases of wrongful conviction. The students admitted that their assignment was to free Anthony Porter and the grades that they received were given higher marks if they aligned with their professors’ claim that he was innocent.

The documentary A Murder in the Park, that we have referenced several times in this episode was created in collaboration with a group called the Whole Truth Project. This group is pro-police and they attempt to defend those questioning the veracity of law enforcement. This a unique opportunity to see two major players duke it out for all eyes to see, it is just unfortunate that everyone involved muddled this case so terribly that the victims were never granted justice. A point of view is just that ONE point of view, there can be several ways to look at evidence, I just believe it is important for all of us to keep an open mind and never become so closed off in your beliefs that you lose sight of what is important.

I appreciate you taking the time to listen to us today, we are going to continue to bring you quality episodes. If you haven’t visited our website you can find us at bowtofate.com, where you can find the transcripts for this episode or donate to keep us up and running. I want to thank DJ Brooks for providing the show with music and artwork, I love you honey. Don’t forget to like us on Facebook or send a tweet to @Bowtofatepod and if you get a chance please subscribe to our podcast to stay up to date with current episodes. Feel free to send us an email at bowtofate@gmail.com with your suggestions for upcoming episodes or call and leave a voicemail at 725-222-FATE, you may just end up on the podcast. Till next time, stay safe and keep listening.